Macbook Pros Are Hot
As many of you have seen, heard, or used a Macbook Pro, you know that they run kind of hot. This is partially because of the insane processor speed, and the small size of the casing; even though there are some other mysteries of the heat. But another fact that some of you may or may not know is that Apple purposely underclocks the Macbook Pro so it doesn’t over heat as much, but it still gets so warm it can become uncomfortable to sit on a lap. Well over at the Something Aweful forums, a user has pointed out that one of the reasons the Macbook Pro gets so hot is because of a misapplication of thermal grease. Now you can read the full article with pictures, or the instructions to disassemble your Macbook Pro yourself; but it does appear to have taken the temperature from about 55 degrees down to 39 degrees. This may void your warranty, so take extreme caution in attempting to do this, you do not want to destroy a $2500 computer.
Twist on April 30th, 2006 at 10:23 pm
I have never used a laptop that hasn’t gotten to be a little too hot to be comfortable when it is sitting in your lap. About the best I have used in this regard was a 400 MHz Pismo. It warmed up slowly enough that you didn’t really notice but when someone else had been using it and they passed it to me it was a bit uncomfortable.
Sam Pullara on April 30th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Anyone near want to start a service that does this? I’m not interested in doing it myself, but I would gladly pay a reasonable amount to have it done by a professional.
Staff Comment Tanner Morrison, TheAppleBlog on April 30th, 2006 at 10:29 pm
I have a few friends with Macbook Pros and those things get so warm you could grill on them. I mean all laptops and computers get hot over time, my Powerbook gets warm after a bit, but Macbook Pros are insane.
Michael on May 1st, 2006 at 1:43 am
Now does the Macbook GPU automatically clock down with the Mac OS drivers? I was never quite clear on how OSX handled advanced driver features like that.
Karuel on May 1st, 2006 at 8:21 am
Well I have a simply solution to your problem. You say that the MBP gets so hot it is too hot for your lap. Why don’t you try wearing pants? Perhaps maybe putting it on a table would be more reasonable? I know they are so handy right there in the lap, but sometimes we have to adapt. It is evolution. Try putting it somewhere else, but try wearing pants first.
Todd Baur on May 1st, 2006 at 8:44 am
Man and all this time I thought *I* was the one getting hot – must’ve been the sites I visited. Thanks Tanner, now I know its just the MBP. Now I will have to wear pants…
Nick on May 1st, 2006 at 11:34 am
It’s a rule of mine to always wear pants while computing. I also leave my MacBook pro on my desk while I work. Even still, it’s hot on my hands when I type. Don’t tell me you expect I should wear gloves as well as pants.
Brad on May 1st, 2006 at 8:26 pm
This doesn’t make sense. If the MacBooks are running too hot because of a grease problem, that means its fixable under warranty. You don’t need to crack your case – if a Macbook with proper grease is running at 39 degrees, and one with poor application of grease is running at 55, you should justbe able to show apple that your macbook is running at the higher temp and they’ll take it back.
Why perform the surgery?
Andrew on May 1st, 2006 at 9:02 pm
Well, Brad, the thread shows that Apple’s own manuals call for too much grease, so even if an Apple certified technician reapplies the grease, if they follow the instructions they’re given then the problem will persist.
The problem here, or so it seems, is that Apple is overdoing it. The dude who made the thread apparently spoke with a “genius” at the Genius Bar and the “genius” said that he would do his best to pass the information on to the appropriate people. This, combined with it being all over the internet, is bound to produce results if a change is indeed necessary
macintosh mac on May 2nd, 2006 at 11:35 am
i am an apple certified technician. taking apart the machine will not void your warranty unless you fuck something up. but if you dont know what you are doing, you probably will fuck something up.
Peter Glaskowsky on May 4th, 2006 at 12:23 am
Woah, woah. That article was stupendously stupid. If the case is cooler, the CPU is hotter. Think about it– if the CPU isn’t transferring its heat to the heat sink, the heat sink can’t transfer the heat to the case. So that bozo has ruined his perfectly good $2,000 laptop, and made a fool of himself in public. Do not make a fool of yourself by following his bad advice.
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Peter Glaskowsky
Former Editor in Chief, Microprocessor Report
Justin Ames on May 4th, 2006 at 10:20 am
I don’t think that is necessarily true. Currently the heat is dissipating through the MacBook’s case, but when the thermal grease is applied properly, it is instead getting transferred to the heat pipes and then vented out the back of the case, where it will not toast our fun bits.
Peter Glaskowsky on May 4th, 2006 at 12:58 pm
Hmm, well, think about it. The only (significant) way that heat gets out of the CPU is into the heat sink. The heat sink, after all, is the only thing connected directly to the CPU (except for the PC board, which isn’t important in this case). The heat sink is also between the CPU and the case. So the case can’t get hotter unless the heat sink gets hotter, and conversely the case can’t be cooler unless the heat sink is cooler.
Improving the thermal interface between the CPU and the heat sink will, therefore, make the heat sink AND the case hotter.
Changing the thermal interface between the CPU and the heat sink simply can’t make the case cooler, the heat sink hotter, and the CPU cooler.
The usual mental model that engineers use for thermal management is a voltage source and a series of resistors connected ultimately to ground. The resistors model the thermal interfaces– between the CPU transistors and the silicon substrate, between the silicon and the heat sink, the heat sink to the heat pipe, the heat pipe to the radiator, the radiator to the fan-blown air, and the blown air to the ambient air outside. You can also think of a parallel chain of resistors connecting from the heat sink to the case, and from the case to the air (or, more likely, your legs).
The “voltage” (heat) is highest at the CPU, and lowest in the ambient air. A better thermal interface is like a lower resistance– it means the nodes it connects will stay at a closer temperature.
Now, because there are two ways to get the heat out of the system– the fan air, and through the case– making the fan air hotter will cool off the case (and your legs). But changing the thermal grease on the CPU can’t change JUST the temperature of the fan air. If you help the CPU get rid of more heat, you’re inevitably going to increase the temperature of the fan air AND the case.
James on May 25th, 2006 at 1:37 am
I’m curious, I’ve heard that reasoning before; that if the heat is being properly transferred to the heatsink, then the case should be warmer. But what about total heat in the system? If you consider the
laptopnotebook as a system, and you’re trying to pump the heat outside the notebook, then increasing the efficiency of the heatsink/fan would remove more heat from the laptop. If the heatsink/fan is less efficient, then the heat cannot be removed as quickly and instead it builds up within the case.I guess the question comes down to; does the heat escape more quickly from heatsink to case (conduction) and then case to air (convection), or from heatink to air (convection) directly? If it’s the second, then improving the efficiency of the heatsink would allow heat to escape to the outside more quickly; also, the converse is that an inefficient heatsink would allow heat to start conducting through other means available (socket, motherboard, other components, anything that’s close to the CPU). One user said that due to the heat issues, the PCB around his CPU was bubbling up. If the heatsink were transferring its heat to the case, then the motherboard should not have suffered as badly. As it is, looks like there was a lot of localized heat buildup, and that the heatsink was not transfering heat from the CPU correctly.
Thoughts?
Peter Glaskowsky on May 25th, 2006 at 8:48 am
Think of the power being consumed by the system as a given. It depends on what kind of processing work you’re doing. This power is converted into heat energy. The goal is to remove the heat energy from the system. At each point where heat is moved from one thing to another– CPU to heatsink, one side of the heatsink to the other, heatsink to case, heatsink to air, etc.– there’s some thermal resistance. The goal of a thermal engineer is to minimize the total thermal resistance from the CPU to the air.
For a given system, each of these thermal resistances is a given. Increasing one, for example by damaging the thermal connection between the CPU and the heatsink as advised by the original ignorant article on Something Awful, doesn’t reduce the others. It just increases the total resistance. Just because the heatsink and case are cooler doesn’t mean the heat energy is being removed from the system faster somewhere else; it can’t work that way. What it DOES mean is that the CPU is much hotter, increasing the fraction of the heat energy that is forced to exit through the motherboard, the local ambient air and adjacent components, keyboard, etc.
But it’s always better to get the heat to leave through the heatsink, heat pipes, fan-blown air, and other elements of the purpose-built thermal management system. The fact that the Something Awful recommendations are causing lower temperatures on the heat pipe-attached thermal sensors is proof positive that using too little thermal compound is BAD for the system. Everyone who follows that advice is damaging their systems.
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Mark on June 12th, 2006 at 6:37 am
OK, I have one of these fine machines with the extreme heat problems. Since I am currently living in China and recently had a horrible 3 month wait to get an iPod serviced, I took fixing the problem into my own hands. After reading tons of articles about this issue I decided to monitor my CPU temp using “CoreDuoTemp” software. The results were extremely difficult to justify or understand. When running under no load the system would vary from 40-50C. However, under heavy load (90-100%), using Hanbreak to encode DVD’s, the range was between 25-80C. The heat would build to between 70 and 80C then the fans would spin up. I mean SPIN UP, like a couple of jet engines. These fans can be a bit loud when running at full speed. Unfortunately, I did not have the time or energy to attempt to find a sensor to take case readings. Being a Expat in China can be challenging for problems like this. That said, the case was uncomfortable to handle both on the top in front of the hinge and on the bottom just behind the RAM access panel.
Next I operated to find a horrific mess of thermal goo located all over the three chips, I took pictures if anyone is interested. Once the thing was cleaned up, I carefully reassembled the machine exactly as I had found it. The web instructions do not mention all of the wire routing tape… Beware there is a lot of tape to keep track of. I reapplied the proper amount of silver compound and reassembled. I also have photo proof of this.
Upon reassembly and attempt to power up… NOTHING! Luckly, I quickly found the RAM was installed into the wrong slot. I’m new to Apple and had no idea they cared which slot is filled first.
Upon reassembly and retesting. I used the same methods to test in the same 20C as before. The processor now runs at a nearly constant 22-25C. GREAT! However the case is still a scorcher. Still to hot to handle on in the same locations.
My conclusion is the heat sink compound was a definite problem. Unfortunatly this is not the solution to everyone’s heat issues with the case. I have a first revision motherboard and the latest software updates. Perhaps there is no solution for this particular machine. That said, this is my first mac and the experience has been less than perfect, regardless you will not catch me shopping for a Vista machine anytime soon. Apple’s software kicks ankle. At least I now understand were all you annoying mac users are coming from. :)
Peter Glaskowsky on June 13th, 2006 at 10:11 pm
It isn’t possible that it’s working the way you think it is. Whether your software is reading the CPU temperature directly, or the temperature sensor(s) on the heat pipes adjacent to the CPU, the temperature you’re measuring has to be closer to the CPU than the case is. Since the heat comes from the CPU, there shouldn’t be any way to see a cold temperature at the sensor when the case is hot.
That is, unless the sensor wires have come loose, in which case the apparent temperature will be almost constant. That’s what you’re seeing, so I think that’s what’s happened.
I repeat, a hot case is evidence that the heat sink is properly attached to the processor. Any change that results in a colder case will also result in a hotter processor. That’s bad.
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Mark on June 16th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I understand your reasoning however I believe that you have made some assumptions based on miss information. The CorDuoTemp software reads directly from the processor sensor. The information is coming directly through the main board. I am 100% sure the temp sensor wire are attached. If one is left unattached or fails to send a reading back to the hardware control the machine will go to a panic mode. In this mode the fans crank up nonstop in order to preserver the rest of the hardware.
I’m not going to go into conduction vs convection since there are many people who have already described this in detail. Conduction is what causes the case to get hot. Convection is what the heat pipe is intended to accomplish. Since apple bothered the pipe and fans in this cooker, I assume the plan was to force heat to the air instead of into the case.
In any case, the amount of heat generated by the process can be considered nearly the same with or without the proper heat paste. (One could argue that the process looses efficiency at higher temps therefore the as heat builds, the rate of heat generation also increases. Fine, but this affect is small in comparison to the processing heat.) The only thing that is changing as the heat paste configuration is modified is the path of heat flow. If the forced air convection (heat pipe) was sized accordingly and working properly, the case would not be so hot.
Something is obviously wrong. I’ve decided to give up on this machine and buy the first next generation 17” that arrives. The amount of discussion this topic is getting is sure to make it a high priority for resolution in the next hardware revision. Shame on me for early adopting!
Peter Glaskowsky on June 16th, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Look, the heat comes from the CPU. There’s just no way that the CPU temperature can be at 25 degrees C if the case is hot! This whole argument about “convention” vs. “conduction” is silly. Essentially all of the heat leaves the CPU through the heat pipes, which is effectively a process of conduction– what happens inside the heat pipes is not relevant here.
So whatever you’re measuring, it doesn’t matter. If your case is hot, the CPU is hot. It’s clear to me that you’ve screwed up your machine just like many of the other people who have messed with things they don’t understand. I’m sorry, but that’s the truth.
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jeroen on June 22nd, 2006 at 1:20 pm
i just do not understand that mac is selling out their primary quality, building absolute perfect and superior machines for pro users. How can steve jobs present a product he couldnt even keep in his hands during his speech because its simply too hot. I am a owner of a mbp but find it unbelievable that i can not rest the side of my hand palm on the computer during typing and browsing.
If design is completely overruling useabillity than i start thinking about pc (did i really say this?)
Mark on June 22nd, 2006 at 11:03 pm
Yet another update after more than a week of heavy use. I suspect there is some issue with CoreDuoTemp software. I am now getting readings that are a bit more realistic which are ranging 25-60C. Not as bad as the original readings but the machine is still uncomfortable to use for extended periods of time.
I’m returning to the States next month and will take it up with Apple then. Regardless of the outcome, I will be obtaining one of the 17 inch MBP following the first hardware refresh. My guess is September timeframe when the new Intel Core 2’s come out.
kevin on June 23rd, 2006 at 9:32 am
Whats the point of a LAPtop when you can’t use it on your lap!!
I have a mbp and am forced to do the majority of my work at a desk!
Tan on July 3rd, 2006 at 11:29 pm
I use the s/w call temprature monitor, and on my Macbook, light used its read about 45-60 C, heavy use it’s read about 62-70 C.
The bottom of the case is too hot to touch,
Kevin L. on July 7th, 2006 at 9:21 am
>I repeat, a hot case is evidence that the heat sink is properly attached to the processor. Any change that results in a colder case will also result in a hotter processor. That’s bad.
Our fundamental difference here is that *you* believe that the heatpipes (NOTE: Heat *pipes*, not heatsink! The heatpipes transfer heat to the heatsink near the fans.) are thermally coupled to the case. While this is unavoidable to some extent (simply due to the physical contact), thus causing a small temperature increase when the heatpipe temperature increases, this is *by far* negligible compared to the thermal buildup that occurs when heat is *not* transferred to the heatpipes. When heat is improperly transferred to the heatpipes, more heat must instead be dissipated through the case. You’ll also note that with the fans off (as is observed prior to modifications), any heat that *is* transferred to the heatsink is not even dissipated properly, meaning ALL thermal energy generated by the CPU must be dissipated through the case. This is certainly the cause of any significant case temperature increase.
Even if the heatsink temperature increases, by your own reasoning, the net heat efflux must equal the net heat generated. If more heat is dissipated through the hotter fan air, then the net heat dissipated through the case _must_ be smaller than if the total amount of generated heat were dissipated through the case, even if there is some heat “lost” from the heatpipe to the case along the way. The case temperature cannot be lower if heat is not dissipated through the fans, because – by your own reasoning – the thermal energy cannot simply be dissipated “into the internal components” and vanish (albeit causing damage, as was the intent of your words). The thermal energy will build up inside, increasing the temperature of the entire system until the case temperature is high enough that the rate of heat transfer from case to air balances the deficiency of the heatsink/fan. The small amount of leakage you speak of cannot be compared with this greater effect, and in fact is simply a ‘fudge factor’ associated with the fundamental issue: Of the total heat generated, a large portion is transferred to the fans and dissipated, but some doesn’t make it along the way; whereas, in a problematic system, simply none of the heat is dissipated through the fans, and *everything* is dissipated through the case.
In any case – heat is not, and never was, meant to be dissipated through laptop casing. The vast majority of laptop surfaces are plastic, which is *not* a good heat conductor. The sum total of exposed metal surface area in the casing is insignificant compared to that the heatsink, which is then cooled via fans. There should be minimal heat transfer from the heat pipes to the case, and maximal transfer to the heatsink, in order to ensure best efficiency – especially since the fans provide much more air flow through the heatsink than the case receives from the relatively still air. If heat is properly dissipated through the heatsink/fans, i.e. at a large enough rate, the rate of dissipation through the case will decrease since rate of generation is constant.
While it should now be intuitively obvious that the case will measure cooler, I will continue academically: the rate of heat transfer from case to air (or between any two heat reservoirs) is directly related to the temperature difference between the two reservoirs, and therefore we can extrapolate that the lower rate of heat flow through the case is indicative of a lower case temperature.
I’m surprised at your oversight; this knowledge is elementary to any first-year engineering student, and I expect that an ‘editor in chief’ of the Microprocessor Report would know at least as much.
>For a given system, each of these thermal resistances is a given. Increasing one, for example by damaging the thermal connection between the CPU and the heatsink as advised by the original ignorant article on Something Awful, doesn’t reduce the others.
You’re making a *huge* assumption here: The thermal connection is NOT being damaged. In fact, this is quite the opposite; if you know anything about thermal conduction, you must understand that thick layers of thermal compound act as insulation, causing resistance rather than greater conductivity. While we’re talking about circuit analogues, the principle of series resistance gives that a thick layer of *anything* beyond what is required to eliminate air gaps between the two metal surfaces will only increase resistance.
>So whatever you’re measuring, it doesn’t matter. If your case is hot, the CPU is hot.
This is the first valid point you’ve made, although not in the way you meant it. The hot case is indicative of improper heat transfer to the heatpipes, and therefore of intense heat buildup in _all_ internal components of the laptop.
>But it’s always better to get the heat to leave through the heatsink, heat pipes, fan-blown air, and other elements of the purpose-built thermal management system. The fact that the Something Awful recommendations are causing lower temperatures on the heat pipe-attached thermal sensors is proof positive that using too little thermal compound is BAD for the system.
You are misinformed: The thermal sensors used for those measurements are *directly on the CPU*, not on the heatpipes. However, it is mentioned that the fans spin up more, indicating that the sensors that _are_ located on the heatpipes are detecting a *higher* temperature. Thus, as is desired, the heatpipe temperature increases and the CPU temperature decreases, indicating that more heat is transferred from CPU to heatpipe.
The heatpipe then efficiently conducts the heat to the heatsink, where the large surface area allows the fans to efficiently remove heat from the system via an out-of-the-way air outlet. You will note that, because the heatsink temperature is higher, and therefore the temperature difference between the air (cold reservoir) and heatsink (hot reservoir) is greater, the rate of heat flow to the air is greater, in addition to the fact that there is a greater rate of air flow due to the fans actually being _on_.
Of course, since the NET heat flow is constant, this means there is less heat that remains to be dissipated through other means, i.e. through the case, and therefore the case remains stable at a lower equilibrium temperature (i.e. the temperature at which net outward heat flow is equal to heat generated).
Of course, your wounded ego will prompt you to post a blistering reply, picking on perceived logic errors in my later paragraphs based on your own fundamental understanding of the issue. However, I must warn you: As I detailed _very_ clearly in my first paragraph, your entire argument has been flawed from the beginning due to an oversimplification, and I advise you to read my post carefully, and proofread your arguments before posting them lest you have the ground cut out from underneath you. On the other hand, if you are simply trolling here, go f*ck yourself and get a life. There are people here who are genuinely trying to help others.
Peter Glaskowsky on July 7th, 2006 at 5:24 pm
The only thing that would wound my ego is to learn that I’ve been misleading people. The only reason I’ve been posting is to discourage people from screwing up their machines by following all the bad advice that’s gone around on this topic. I haven’t heard a single thing from you or anyone else that shows anyone has improved the operation of their computer by messing with the thermal paste, and there’s a LOT of evidence of ruined machines. I don’t say anyone is doing this maliciously, but the results speak for themselves.
I’m not going to pick nits with you line by line, but a few points are worth addressing.
If you want to be technical, there are no heat sinks in any ordinary computer. Everything just transfers heat. A block of aluminum acts as a heat sink only while it’s warming up, and that’s not an important point. The thing between the CPU and the heat pipe is most properly called a “heat exchanger,” as is the thing between the other end of the heat pipe and the air. When I’m having technical discussions with engineers and product managers at companies that make thermal-management hardware– as I’ve done within the last month as part of my job– I use the proper terms. But here, I’m talking to people who use the term “heat sink” broadly to cover all these things, so in the interest of more effective communication, I use that term too. I also used the term “radiator” in an earlier comment here because that seemed to help.
I don’t actually know to what extent the heat pipes are coupled to the case, although obviously they are to some extent, through the air if nothing else. I think you’re maybe reading too quickly or something; I’ve never implied the primary purpose of the heat pipes was to transfer the heat to the case. But because they run close to the case– at least, closer than the CPU itself– if they’re hotter, the case nearby will likely be hotter.
You’re entirely correct to point out that if more heat gets into the heat pipes, and the fans come on, more heat leaves through the preferred path and therefore less leaves through other paths such as the case. But I’m not arguing against that. I’m saying that this recommended rework generally interferes with this preferred situation, and certainly can’t help.
But even so, unless the heat gets out of the CPU into the hot end of the heat pipe, it’s going to have a more difficult time getting into the case in that area. That essential truth undermines the rest of your argument, so I won’t spend much more time on it.
You’re correct to say that if the CPU is not well connected to its heat exchanger, the heat still has to go somewhere. With a good connection, the heat is directed to the relatively small areas around the hot chips, heat exchangers, and heat pipes. Without a good connection, it just goes everywhere. The heat pipes don’t get as hot, and the hot spots on the case don’t get as hot. So this creates the appearance of reduced case temperatures. The CPU, unfortunately, gets hotter.
This is why you’re wrong to say “the case temperature cannot be lower if heat is not dissipated through the fans.” The total heat leaving through the case is the same (barring thermal throttling, which must be happening in the most severe cases of user-induced damage), but it’s more diffuse, so the peak temperatures are lower. The difference between total flux and flux density is also one of those things they teach us in college, remember?
On the question of where the thermal sensors are located– well, there are several sensors. People are reporting all kinds of temperature readings, and some of them just don’t make sense– not according to my analysis or yours either. So honestly I don’t know what to make of these reports.
The MacBook Pro case certainly is meant to help dissipate heat, at least in the sense that Apple’s thermal engineers know perfectly well it provides a path to ambient. But yeah, they probably regard it as the undesirable path too.
You repeat the old canard about how “thick layers of thermal compound act as insulation.” We’re not talking about thick layers. It’s obvious from the photos of disassembled MacBook Pro systems that the excess goop Apple’s manufacturing technicians are squirting in there is almost entirely squeezed out when the heat sinks are mated to the chips; what’s left is a few thousandths of an inch thick. It’s certainly much thinner than an index card, which is around 0.007″ thick.
According to Wikipedia, “The typical silicon and zinc oxide thermal compound has thermal conductivity between 0.7 and 0.9 W/(m·K).” Now do the math– assume the CPU power is 31W, and tell me how much higher the CPU temperature will be for each additional 0.001″ of thermal compound. It works out to less than 0.001 degree C, literally unmeasurable.
In poking around on the net, I ran into this long article about some guy who tested many different kinds of thermal paste. Plus water, toothpaste, and Vegemite. The variance in his results across most of these substances, even with deliberate thickness variations, is just a few hundredths of a degree C per watt of power, or around one to two degrees of potential variance in CPU temperature. That’s less than the likely error margin for his measurements.
http://www.dansdata.com/goop.htm
Now– is this a blistering reply? Do I sound like a troll? I’m trying to sound like a guy with a lot of relevant professional experience designing and building microprocessor-based hardware. I’ve designed heat sinks for a living, with good results. I’m helping to design a microprocessor right now, and thermal management is one of the things I’m in charge of. So if you don’t mind, instead of f*cking myself, I’ll just get back to work.
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Peter Glaskowsky on July 9th, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Be patient, everyone, there’s a nice long comment awaiting moderation. :-)
Since Friday. :-(
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Peter Glaskowsky on July 11th, 2006 at 10:54 pm
Ah, there we are. Thanks be to the gods of The Apple Blog.
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Kevin L. on July 12th, 2006 at 8:11 am
>Now– is this a blistering reply? Do I sound like a troll?
No, and I’m glad =) Your previous replies came across as assumptuous and unjustified. To be perfectly honest, my opinion was “like a guy _pretending_ to have a lot of relevant professional experience”.
>I’ve never implied the primary purpose of the heat pipes was to transfer the heat to the case.
In support of my previous statement, your first post seemed to clearly imply this ;) I understand what you mean now.
>I’m saying that this recommended rework generally interferes with this preferred situation, and certainly can’t help.
Can you clarify? From what I’ve read, the fans *do* come on more often, which implies to me that the rework gives the desired results (i.e. more heat leaving the case through the proper pathway). Are the fans not indicative that the heatpipes are getting hotter? To me, this is the strongest argument for the procedure.
Peter Glaskowsky on July 12th, 2006 at 8:59 am
As far as I can tell, I didn’t say anything wrong in any of my comments here, but I’ve learned that being right isn’t a guarantee that people will understand or agree with me. I have as much professional experience as a writer as I do as an engineer, and I still can’t write in a way that absolutely precludes misunderstanding. I don’t even know anyone who can.
You ask if the increased fan activity isn’t proof that the rework helps. I have no evidence that there is increased fan activity. I’ve never seen anyone describe a controlled experiment with conscientious data collection. It’s always just someone’s feeling, and that isn’t science. So I just don’t believe that people are consistently seeing any improvement. If anything, the evidence suggests most people who make this change have screwed up their machines.
Since the facts clearly show that replacing a five-mil film of one brand of thermal paste with a two-mil film of some other random brand– the best outcome one might rationally hope for– isn’t going to make a meaningful difference, I can’t see how anyone can support this modification. Sure, there might be individual cases where someone had a machine that was screwed up by the factory, and futzing with it helped somehow, but I doubt it.
It’s far more likely that people are inventing rationalizations after the fact. That behavior is pretty much universal in this kind of situation. Talk to ten people who have modified an imported compact sports car and nine of them will report improved performance. Put them on a dynamometer or race track, and the odds are that only one or two will actually be better. Most will see no change and some will be worse– because those cars are professionally engineered to begin with, and amateur modifications are more likely to hurt than help.
This is what I’m talking about:
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/productreviews/fr/aafpr052002.htm
Heatsink goop has become the Tornado of the MacBook Pro market. The modification usually can’t help, and it certainly can do harm, but whenever you see people speaking up about it they’re convinced they did the right thing. They will invent evidence as needed to support their positions.
In this case, since people don’t always understand the evidence, sometimes they report evidence that proves they made things worse after all, like the original writer did on Something Awful. Lower peak case temperatures is proof of damage. Right here on this page, Mark described the problems he’s had since messing with his machine. How much more evidence does anyone need that this rework is a bad idea?
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Kevin L. on July 12th, 2006 at 10:40 am
I will not argue the rationalization and placebo point; I am well aware of the possibility.
>>Lower peak case temperatures is proof of damage.
This is not justified. As has been discussed ad nauseum, we don’t know the extent of leakage between the heatpipes and case. If it is less significant than the effect caused by heat buildup around the CPU area, then cooling is proof of precisely the opposite.
Even then, there is no evidence that the temperatures measured were peak temperatures.
>>I have no evidence that there is increased fan activity. I’ve never seen anyone describe a controlled experiment with conscientious data collection. It’s always just someone’s feeling, and that isn’t science. So I just don’t believe that people are consistently seeing any improvement.
Reading through the SomethingAwful thread, the majority of those who reworked their machines report increased fan activity, usually from zero. In my opinion, the sudden appearance of fan activity is significant enough a change that it is unlikely to be the product of rationalization or placebo.
>>Right here on this page, Mark described the problems he’s had since messing with his machine. How much more evidence does anyone need that this rework is a bad idea?
Mark’s results indicate no change in case temperature, and a decrease in reported CPU temperature. How does this support your argument?
>>sometimes they report evidence that proves they made things worse after all, like the original writer did on Something Awful.
For obvious reasons, I object to this statement.
Peter Glaskowsky on July 12th, 2006 at 1:18 pm
Rationalizations aren’t just possible, they’re inevitable in this situation. The rational thing to do is compensate for them by discounting results that are impossible or contrary to reasonable expectations, such as Mark’s claim that his CPU temperature had dropped to below 25 degrees C. That’s impossible, so it didn’t happen. I can’t explain it, but that hardly matters.
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Kevin L. on July 12th, 2006 at 2:07 pm
My, you are a troll aren’t you?
>>
Right here on this page, Mark described the problems he’s had since messing with his machine. How much more evidence does anyone need that this rework is a bad idea?
—————-
The rational thing to do is compensate for them by discounting results that are impossible or contrary to reasonable expectations, such as Mark’s claim that his CPU temperature had dropped to below 25 degrees C. That’s impossible, so it didn’t happen. I can’t explain it, but that hardly matters.
>>
It’s this kind of circle-running that kills your credibility. You simply cannot present Mark’s results as definitive proof of your point, and in the same breath, reject them as the product of ‘rationalization’ and discount them because they are impossible.
Besides which, when Mark re-measured later, his results were far more reasonable, although still improved.
And, of course, you simply cannot call a sensor reading the product of rationalization.
In my opinion, _you_ are the one rationalizing at this point.
Peter Glaskowsky on July 12th, 2006 at 2:27 pm
Well, we can all see what your opinions are worth.
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Mark on July 13th, 2006 at 7:11 pm
This is the third to last update to my hot “notebook” situation. As I stated before, I live in China and am reluctant to send the unit back for service because of a EXTREEMLY POOR service situation with an iPod. Well I finally have reached the limit with my MacBook Pro heat issues and gave Apple a call. To my surprise, I was immediately assigned a “customer specialist.” This is probably because I speak very little Chinese. If you are not familiar, these people are not your everyday Joe Service Guy. They are more polite, listen to your problems, work to get your issue resolved, and follow up proactively on your case. He has actually called to check up on my current progress and satisfaction. He assured me he would follow the situation on a daily basis to ensure the problem was resolved to my satisfaction.
I described my displeasure with excessive heat, as well as the annoying high-pitched sound coming from below the F1 key area. The noise is a common problem, which I had already accepted as punishment for being an early adopter. After quietly listing to my issues he service specialist requested my machine serial number. I was put on hold for a couple of minutes. Upon his return, his next comment was “you need to bring your computer to a service center for a logic board replacement.” From what I have read in other posts, the US based Apple folks are a bit more secretive about what the issue may be. There is obviously a known issue related to heat or noise with the early machines.
The machine arrived at the service center yesterday and the engineer was scheduled to check it out in the afternoon. Hopefully, later today I will hear the status of the machine and potential repairs.
Two major data points should come from this experience. The first is what happens to the warranty if you take the machine apart yourself. I was extremely careful when removing and reassembling components, including the yellow 3M tape positions. However upon close inspection they should be able to see that I had a slight problem with engagement of the 2 screws located inside of the battery compartment. During the re-assembly process the screwdriver slipped a couple of times leaving minor evidence of my work. They may also notice 90% of the original thermal paste mess is missing.
The second piece of valuable information will be if the repair fixes the heat issue. I really don’t care about the noise issue but I’ll update everyone on that too. Again, I do not have empirical data to compare before and after results. The machine was too hot to keep on your lap PERIOD! Were talking about pain not about slight discomfort. It is going to be obvious if the problem is fixed. The first time my wife used the laptop she called me at work because she thought it was going to start a fire. It is likely she was overreacting but that should give everyone an idea of how hot my machine gets. She would defiantly not accept this product as long as I had held out.
I understand the questioning of my earlier post results. These were the facts as I observed them. For everyone’s reference, I do have a clear understanding of heat transfer, and have plenty of experience building computers. No, I do not design heat dissipation systems for computers but I do have a master degree in mechanical engineering. In the past I have completed experiments with processor cooling related to over clocking (sometimes overcooking) of processors. Fortunately recent hardware now meets my speed requirements without having to modify.
Kevin has done a good job in explaining the technical situation of heat paths and equilibrium of the system. I was afraid to this may turn into a “who knows more technical jargon.” Let’s face it, the heat is going to be generated and needs to escape the case. The options are limited and well described in previous posts.
Sorry I do not have a laboratory environment for testing… If at home in the US I would be more process and variable specific. In China it was difficult enough just finding a MacBook Pro to purchase.
I rarely post to this kind of site for the reason of the argument, which is taking place between Larry and Peter. Hopefully the description of my experience proves helpful to those in the same situation.
Hopefully the next post is related to Apple fixing the machine.
Mark
heidi on September 14th, 2006 at 11:37 pm
so does this mean i shouldn’t leave my MBP on over night light i did my emac? my boyfriend says it’s actually worse to keep shutting it off and turning it on.
what do you all think?
Peter Glaskowsky on September 15th, 2006 at 8:23 am
Heidi, your boyfriend would be correct if the machine would be off for just a few minutes– but overnight, it’s definitely better to close the lid and let the machine go to sleep.
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Michael D on September 20th, 2006 at 5:48 am
I have the new Dual 2.16 15 inch MBP. The bottom of my Macbook does not get hot but its more of the Topside where the left speaker is located. When typing I can feel a lot of heat coming out. Did they choose a new place to vent the heat exchange? Also my MBP only gets hot when it runs off its charger setup. When not plugged in, it stays cool. Has anyone else seen these results?
Stefan King on October 2nd, 2006 at 12:42 pm
I just picked up a USB powered cooling stand for my MBP. Its keeps the case as cool as a cucumber. Now I can actually rest my hands on the case while typing… I haven’t tried it in my lap but it would probably work there too… Best $30 I’ve ever spent…
Kevin L. on October 2nd, 2006 at 1:08 pm
>
Also my MBP only gets hot when it runs off its charger setup. When not plugged in, it stays cool. Has anyone else seen these results?
>
Yes. My friend recently bought a MBP; it gets hot enough *when charging* that I almost recoil when I touch it – but not quite. Otherwise it seems more or less cool.
On a side note, his seems to heat up mainly towards the front/left, on the bottom. He says it’s fine though, and has no plans to ‘mod’ the paste.
Lorenia on October 14th, 2006 at 4:20 pm
Hi thanks for the comments. I just bought a MBP and I am having pain in my wrists for the heat. I am living in Mexico right now, should I take the machine to the Apple to fix? is there a real solution about this?
Doug on October 29th, 2006 at 9:25 am
I wouldn’t suggest taking it apart to clean up the grease issue, way too risky for an expensive piece of kit! My suggestion is download the smcFanControl. It controls the speeds of your fans, I’ve set mine to 3500rpm and its keeping the temperature at around 44C degrees, its usually in high 70s so a massive improvement!
As for closing the lid, your MBP can sleep with the lid open. The energy saver utility is pretty good, I let my disks sleep overnight if I’m not downloading anything but they turn off automatically if there is no activity. Personally I like having the MBP to wake me up in the morning with some music playing, can’t do that with the lid closed :)
Johan on November 9th, 2006 at 11:16 pm
Undervolt and the heat problem is no more.
http://www.macupdate.com/info.php/id/23183
paul on December 14th, 2006 at 3:50 am
third party app – smcFanControl works superbly. The obvious trade off is noise. The two fans inside the MBP have a range of 0 – 6000rpm. Apple has set them to 1000rpm with no option to change. My MBP was at 62degrees C with both fans at 1000rpm. When changed to two fans at 6000rpm it dropped to 30degrees within minutes but was very loud. A good sped vs noise seems to be around 2500-3000rpm.
Tested and sworn for. smcFanControl is freeware.
jen on January 7th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
i recently had my mbp serviced at Apple to repair the whine and they replaced the logic board. now my mbp gets really hot and recently the magnetic power cord melted. i brought the whole system in to Apple and they said it was probably a bad power cord. Do you think the heat of the system could have melted the power adapter somehow? My mbp never used to feel this hot before. Now it will burn to the touch and it makes me nervous to leave it plugged in when i’m not home. any thoughts would be helpful.
Erik on May 22nd, 2007 at 11:05 pm
I’ve got the solution for your too hot MacBook Pro: It’s a product called iLap sold at the Apple Store. It’s really fantastic, especially the wrist pad. The best money on an overpriced accessory I’ve ever spent! Also, you’ll notice that computer manufactures will never refer to their laptops as laptops anymore, and I’ve heard that is specifically because they run so hot these days.
Steve Jones on August 14th, 2007 at 10:49 am
OK, so I was freaking out. Brand new battery in the MacBook Pro, and it was showing less than 2 hours battery life. Added to which, using SMC Fan Control (great little app) I could see the fans were running at 6000rpm and the computer was at 165 degrees Fahrenheit. HOT. That’s with no apps open or anything.
Thence to the Apple Store. Opening “Activity Monitor” revealed that a freak process was running in the background using 100% of my CPU power – a printjob application. The Apple Genius (who did know his stuff – I was impressed) said that Hewlett Packard drivers in particular are problematic, and can sometime just hang in the background. Good news is, you can just kill them in the Activity Monitor.
Following the killed process, the computer temperature has dropped to an average of 117, and the fans are just ticking over at 2900 rpm.
Worth a look if you are having a “constant overheat” problem.
Ken on August 28th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
The Apple Genius (who did know his stuff – I was impressed) said that Hewlett Packard drivers in particular are problematic, and can sometime just hang in the background. Good news is, you can just kill them in the Activity Monitor.
Thanks for this info. i got my mac book pro today and turn on 5 minutes and it was so hot and scaring me. damn……
not so happy about heat on September 24th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
I don’t know who is correct over the thermal compound application issue. I have experience building computers for myself and friends and always found that using “just enough” thermal compound was better than “more than enough.”
I have 2 MBP. One is a “MBP 2,2″ with the Radeon x1600M and the other is a “MBP 3,1″ (Santa Rosa) with the Nvidia 8600M GT… Using a widget called iStat I see that the “2,2″ laptop runs, on average, 15C cooler at the GPU and 5C at the CPU. (The difference between the processor speeds is only .84MHZ) The temperatures labeled “memory” and “enclosure” read the same temperatures for both machines.
I found this post to be most interesting because I most certainly do not enjoy the higher temperatures of the new Santa Rosa notebooks. They run so hot that I cannot touch the metal between the first row of function keys and the screen without feeling burnt. I did open up the “3,1″, clear the gunk, and conservatively reapply arctic silver 5. I took my time and it wasn’t really a big deal. Anyone with computer building or repair experience shouldn’t be afraid to open up the MBP, they are a lot of fun to take apart and if you are careful they are not easy to break.
Anyway, who cares about that…
What happened after the reapplication is disappointing for me, but interesting under the context of this continuing thread…
All temperatures remained the same at the CPU, GPU, and Memory while the temperature reading at the two Heatsink locations increased by 2 degrees Celsius. The only drop in temperature was observed at the Enclosure (case) reading which dropped by 1 degree C.
So, I guess that the reapplication of the thermal compound did nothing at all. Everything is just as hot to touch as it ever was.
I thought it would be interesting to see how the different views of Peter and Kevin explain my results.
*I worked on a clean glass table and wore nitrile gloves. I used isopropyl alcohol and Qtips to remove the thermal compound.
The most disturbing part of the whole procedure is that I observed that in my “3,1″ MBP, the heatsink for the GPU was actually cracked!
It wasn’t broken apart, but there is a long gouge down the middle of it so that if you were to take a fingernail and run it past the heatsink you’d feel the irregular surface.
Also, the GPU chip itself is larger than the GPU heatsink, and the heatpipes are entirely black, no copper except for at the 3 heatsinks. I have plenty of pictures and just don’t know what to do about this computer. It can safely say that it is TOO HOT!
I’d be much happier if apple had figured out a way to increase performance without increasing the idle temp of the GPU by 20C!
Yes, the new 8600M runs at 65C on average while the older x1600M runs at 45C, at least that is what I observe in my two computers.
One other thing I should mention is that the ambient temperature where I currently am is between 26 and 30C (The Caribbean.) I haven’t opened anything other than the dashboard, safari, and iTunes on the “3,1″ MBP because at idle it is hotter than the “2,1″ MBP has ever been.
Since both computers live in the tropics I can’t find any reason to not blame Apple for this terrible temperature problem. Their previous generation MBP runs just fine here (at a cool 45C, lol) and while I appreciate the idea of a more powerful GPU, I’m almost positive the new temperature problems are entirely the fault of the new GPU (or the crappy GPU heatsink), since the CPU temps are rarely more than 5C away from each other and all the other temps are almost the same (Obviously the heatsink readings are higher since the GPU is 20C hotter in one computer vs. the other, but all the other temps are very close using iStat Pro widget.)
The new MBP is truly too hot to be of any use to me here.
What ever happened Mark?
Did you ever get a cool Santa Rosa MBP?
Michael S. on October 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
I’ve got a MBP 2.2ghz dual core. Using iStat widget to measure temps. Mine idles at around.. 120 or 130 F. As soon as I start using it for simple browsing, it goes up to 155 or so. If I’m doing advanced stuff (processing videos, whatever) I’ve actually spiked it to 195 before.
All my problems were solved by installing smcfancontrol. I just keep an eye on the temps, and whenever it gets too warm, I just bump the fans up to 6000 rpm. Within 5 minutes, it’s cooled down to the 120-130 range and I shut the fans back off until it spikes again.
Hot case isn’t that big of a deal to me, I’ve never had a temp-related processor crash and I figure it’s just the price I pay for having a fast computer. Seems like a small price to me.
Far more irritating is the fact that it rarely if ever is willing to wake up after sleep. When I open the lid, the sleep light goes off but it never wakes up. Power button, nothing. Space bar, nothing. Mouse clicks, nothing. Close the lid, and the light comes ON and stays steady instead of breathing. Open it, light goes out. Close it, light comes back on solid. Have to hold the power button for 5 seconds to kill it and reboot. All system updates performed. Wish Apple would fix this instead of worrying about the temps.
Sam on October 20th, 2007 at 1:23 am
If your Macbook Pro doesn’t wake from sleep its defective in some way, could be software or hardware but that isn’t normal. Go to an Apple Store and have them fix it.
Sean on December 14th, 2007 at 1:29 am
Anyone know if Apple recognizes the heat issue or not yet and will fix it? I got too excited and suckered into spending way too much money for a refurbished 1st gen MBP….the thing gets so hot it can actually burn ….and has. I also can’t actually put it on my lap either. Just once I want to be able to sit back and relax and use my MBP without having to sit at a table and not sweat because of the heat.
jc on February 25th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I don’t understand the heat issues peple are having. I had a top-tier PBG4 15″, and now have a top-tier MBP 15″, and I haven’t noticed much difference in the heat.
I’ve NEVER had issues with the typing surface becoming uncomfortable. The bottom only becomes hot when I have the laptop sitting on a surface that insulates the heat (basically any sort of fabric), instead of a smooth, flat surface.
There are either some anomalies in MBP manufacturing quality out there, or people are being unreasonable with their expectations.
Sean on February 25th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
The heat issues are for the 1st gen MBP, which I have. I have mine set on a smooth flat surface, and it will become very hot, and the part above the keyboard can actually burn you when touched. Forget about setting it on your lap, the bottom will burn your legs.
The newer MBP have the heat issue resolved, a friend of mine has one and the difference is amazing. The thing barely gets hot.
jc on February 25th, 2008 at 3:49 pm
Ahh. Mine was new in mid-December.
I wonder if a software fix is even possible with the earlier MBPs, or if it’s strictly a hardware issue.
At any rate, this article reminded me of the iStat pro widget, for which I am grateful! (woot)
Best of luck to all of those who venture into fixing the heat themselves.
Anthony K. on April 17th, 2008 at 6:07 am
I just got my first MBP and lovED it, then I discovered the “hot” issue. AHHH!! Are you kidding me?! I paid $2500 for this? Great laptop but extremely frustrating that I can’t even put it on my lap. I work in a very hot environment in Asia and this just doesn’t help. I went away from Toshiba because of this problem…and now I’m dealing with it again with what I thought would be “THE COMPUTER” for life. Hmmm…so disappointing. Is there any help with this problem? It’s brandnew…so should I refund my purchase?
Per Johansson on April 27th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I bought a MBP a couple of days ago and I love it.
The heat is a major drawback and could actually be a reason to return it.
Tried the smcFanControl and it actually works! From 160 degrees F to 130 within 10 minutes.
Fan is not too noisy at 4000rpm but a bit loud at 6000rpm.
Still a bit warmer than my IBM ThinkPad but at least I do not have burn my lap.
AdamM. on August 23rd, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Today I downloaded smcFanControl 2.1 and it has worked wonders for this issue. If you don’t mind the noise of running your fans a 6000 rpm this fixes the problem. Now I can run my MBP in my lap even while playing high end games.
David on February 7th, 2009 at 6:08 am
I didnt bother reading every reply here, if I had tried it would hve taken more time than I care to commit to. But, it seems everyone is talking about CPU temp here, as if its the only part of the laptop whose temp increases. There are other things like the GPU, RAM, HDD and so on that all increase in temp as their use increases.
Perhaps, just perhaps, these other things are contributing to the high case temperatures.
Crazy thought.
I hate that I cant sit on my lounge and use my MBP because of the heat, but aside from all that, its without a doubt the best OS/computer combination I have ever used – and I used to virtually hate the things.
The heat sucks, be nice if they addressed this as a priority!
Adrian on March 24th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Hi there all heat stressed individuals.
This may not solve everyones issues with heat but it sure did the trick for me. After months of seeing my battery usage plummet in an hour and a half and the temperature of my MBPro circa early 2008, I finally found the solution.
Sure these things run insane processor speeds and yes metal does conduct heat nicely to your thighs, but if the fan is going into overdrive and the eggs in your ovaries have just been poached, then check the CPU processor speed. It has likely been hijacked by a program this is “stuck”. Yes, technical term I know.
Anyhow, here is the link. Nice and easy to follow and as I said; I am now back to 4+ hours of battery life and my loins are now waiting to be roasted in other ways.
http://support.apple.com/kb/TS1473