American vs. British English

[divigation]

Originally Posted by houltmac

That said, it doesn't make sense that you don't know a sentence is a question until you finish reading it does it?

An interesting point of English, but not merely a matter of punctuation because it is the same in spoken English where the raised intonation at the end of the sentence notifies the listener that it is a question. So which came first, the question mark or the inflection? My guess would be that the question mark is meant to represent that inflection that makes a spoken question stand out from a declarative statement. Who knows?

[Raven]

The inflection vs. marker question also differs by language. I know there are many languages where the question mark would be superfluous, since you can tell from the wording of the sentence that it's a question. I know this is true for most romance languages, and I think for German as well. I'd be interested to know if English lost it, or if German gained it. (Although Latin handling questions via wording makes me think the latter.)

[Ginamos]

Originally Posted by Raven

The inflection vs. marker question also differs by language. I know there are many languages where the question mark would be superfluous, since you can tell from the wording of the sentence that it's a question. I know this is true for most romance languages, and I think for German as well. I'd be interested to know if English lost it, or if German gained it. (Although Latin handling questions via wording makes me think the latter.)

English (Anglo Saxon, Old English) lost the inflection around the 9th century AD, after the Viking settlement of northern England (Danelaw). The country was divided into Anglo Saxon speakers in the south and Scandinavian speakers in the north. Both shared a common Germanic language root, but couldn't understand each other. What formed as a result of the two groups communicating was a kind of broken Germanic language, shorn of inflection.

A couple of books I've read on the subject:
Mother Tongue
The Story Of English

Originally Posted by Raven

As an American, I agree with you. (Although - maybe it's different in Oz - shouldn't that be 'Americans,' not 'American's'?)
People speak and write so badly that it makes me twitch. Don't even get me started on AIM-speak, too.

Yes, you're quite right it should be Americans. My bad

[divigation]

For suggested reading I would highly recommend The Adventure of English by Melvin Bragg. An exceptional account of the development of the language in all regards, as entertaining as it is informative. The writing is wonderfully playful and very well done compared to many other texts on the subject, Bill Bryson's Mad in America, for example, which spout of list after list in the most dull ways. Though I would highly suggest the audiobook from Audible or iTS since much of the non english in the book is meant to exemplify aural similarities which are lost on the reader since they can only imagine how to pronounce the examples, many of which stray considerably in pronunciation from their visual form. If ever there were an impeccable argument for audiobooks, this would be it. Most fascinating of all is that English even exists as a language, its history is as fascinating as its development is amazing.

[Ginamos]

Excellent suggestion divigation, I forgot about "The Adventure Of English". Melvyn Bragg also did an earlier series on BBC Radio 4 in 2000/01 called "The Routes Of English", streaming links to the program are still available. You're totally right, subjects like these need to be listened to, rather than read.

I'd agree, Bill Bryson's book "Made In America" is quite poor, most of his material comes from his earlier book "Mother Tongue", I got the impression he ran out of time completing the latter book. Bryson's really more of a populariser than an academic authority on the subject, however he is quite an entertaining writer, despite his faults.

Melvyn Bragg also has a weekly podcast called "In Our Time" which maybe of interest,

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Ginamos

English (Anglo Saxon, Old English) lost the inflection around the 9th century AD, after the Viking settlement of northern England (Danelaw). The country was divided into Anglo Saxon speakers in the south and Scandinavian speakers in the north. Both shared a common Germanic language root, but couldn't understand each other. What formed as a result of the two groups communicating was a kind of broken Germanic language, shorn of inflection.

Ah, thank you! Another question answered. (Have I mentioned recently how I do love the TAB forums?)

[J Walk]

Going back on this conversation...

I find British English to make a bit more sense, and thus use it more often than American English. On the whole "Apple is" and "Apple are", Americans would probably contradict their grammar if saying something like, "Apple is a great company, their products are great."

I think Britons have it right.

[baseballboy828]

Well, saying "Apple...their products are great" isn't correct American english. The correct way to say that would be "Apple is a great company. Its products are great." I think businesses should be referred to as businesses, which are "its". Apple employees are knowledgeable. Apple is a good company. Apple is singular, so it makes more sense to me to use "is".

[J Walk]

I know it was not "proper" American English, but I was pointing out that most Americans would say it that way. Which one makes sense and flows better?

"Apple is a great company. It makes good computers"; or

"Apple is a great company. They make good computers".

I'm saying that even though the first one is grammatically correct, people will most likely say the latter.

[Raven]

I've always thought that that was kind of strange, J Walk. When did 'they' get accepted as the gender-indeterminate singular pronoun? I hear it all over, and I fear that I even slip on it - and I'm that person who's usually correcting others' grammar!